Customer Lifecycle Marketing: Designing Touchpoints That Compound

You have a customer. You acquired them at a cost. Now what? If your answer is “send a welcome email and hope they buy again,” you’re leaving 40-60% of your customer lifetime value on the table. Customer lifecycle marketing isn’t a buzzword—it’s the difference between a business that plateaus at $2M ARR and one that scales to $10M+ while shrinking CAC.

Most growth teams treat the customer journey like a single transaction. They optimize for the sale, declare victory, then ghost the customer until renewal season. This model breaks the second you want repeat purchases, upsells, or word-of-mouth referrals. Lifecycle marketing flips the script: you design a sequence of touchpoints—email, SMS, in-app, ads, content—that moves buyers through awareness, consideration, purchase, onboarding, expansion, and advocacy stages. Each touchpoint is placed there intentionally, triggered by behavior or time, and built to push the buyer toward the next logical step.

Here’s what we’ve learned from building lifecycle systems for 7-figure B2B and D2C brands: compounding happens when three things align. First, you map every stage of your buyer’s journey to measurable business outcomes (CAC payback, LTV, NPS). Second, you design 2-4 touchpoints per stage that move buyers forward, not just stay top-of-mind. Third, you automate the motion so that touchpoints fire based on behavior, not manual effort. At CO Consulting, we handle this as fractional CMO work built on top of AI-powered systems and automation infrastructure. The result: clients ship playbooks that compound for 24+ months, usually without needing ongoing consulting.

This guide shows you how to build a customer lifecycle marketing engine that actually scales. We’ll walk through the architecture, the specific touchpoints that move the needle, how to measure what matters, and how to staff the system without building a 12-person team. By the end, you’ll have a blueprint to implement yourself or hand off to an agency that knows what they’re doing.

“Touchpoints don’t compound because they’re numerous. They compound because they’re sequential, contextual, and timed to buyer psychology. Most 7-figure businesses are still sending random emails to random segments.”

Key Takeaways

• Customer lifecycle marketing maps every stage of the buyer journey to specific touchpoints, reducing churn by 34% and increasing customer LTV by 2-3x.
• The five core stages are: awareness, consideration, purchase, onboarding/expansion, and advocacy. Each stage needs 2-4 targeted touchpoints.
• Touchpoints compound when triggered by behavior (not just time), sequenced logically, and tracked back to revenue outcomes.
• Most companies over-automate messaging and under-invest in copywriting, offer design, and psychological triggers that actually move behavior.
• A lifecycle marketing system requires integration across email, SMS, ads, analytics, and product experience—not separate campaigns.
• You can build a functional lifecycle engine with 1-2 people and the right tool stack; you cannot build one with siloed tools and tribal knowledge.
• Measure success by CAC payback period, customer LTV by cohort, expansion revenue per customer, and NPS by stage—not vanity metrics like open rates.

What is customer lifecycle marketing, and why does it compound?

Customer lifecycle marketing is the practice of designing and executing sequences of touchpoints that move a customer through five stages: awareness, consideration, purchase, expansion, and advocacy. Each touchpoint serves a specific purpose. An awareness-stage touchpoint educates. A consideration-stage touchpoint addresses objections. A purchase-stage touchpoint removes friction. An expansion-stage touchpoint reminds the customer of value. An advocacy-stage touchpoint asks for the referral. When these touchpoints are chained together logically, timed to behavior, and measured back to revenue, they compound. Compound means that the second touchpoint is more effective because the first happened, the third works harder because of the first two, and so on. A single email gets a 2% response rate. A sequence of five emails, spaced and contextualized, gets 12-18% because each one primes the next.

The math of compounding is straightforward. Assume you acquire 100 customers per month at a CAC of $500. With no lifecycle system, 15% stay for year two (churn: 85%). With a lifecycle system that hits your onboarding and expansion stages well, 49% stay for year two (churn: 51%). That’s an 34-point reduction in churn. Now, assume your customer lifetime value is $2,000 with no lifecycle work. Add a well-designed expansion sequence, and 40% of your retained customers buy an add-on or upgrade, raising average LTV to $2,800. That same 100 customers per month, over 12 months, generate $300K more revenue without a higher CAC. Over 24 months, it’s $720K. That’s compounding.

Why doesn’t every company do this? Three reasons. First, it requires cross-functional coordination. You need marketing, product, CS, and data to agree on what success looks like and who owns what touchpoint. Second, it takes 60-90 days to build and test. Most teams are chasing month-to-month targets and don’t have the runway to build systems. Third, the payoff is slow and hard to see in a spreadsheet. Acquisition is immediate and obvious. Lifecycle work shows up as improved retention three months later and higher LTV six months later. If your org doesn’t have a long-term lens, you won’t build it. But if you’re serious about scaling from $1M to $10M ARR, lifecycle marketing is the lever.

The five stages of the customer lifecycle and their purpose

Stage 1: Awareness. The buyer doesn’t know you exist yet. Your job here is to show up where they’re searching or scrolling, position your solution as relevant to their problem, and move them to consideration. Touchpoints: SEO-driven blog posts, paid search ads, LinkedIn ads targeting lookalike audiences, content offers (guides, templates, webinars). Success metric: cost per lead and lead quality (% that fit ICP).

Stage 2: Consideration. The buyer knows the problem and is exploring solutions. Your job is to show why your solution is the best fit, address objections, and move them toward a decision. Touchpoints: email nurture sequences (3-5 emails addressing specific objections), case studies and social proof, comparison content, demo requests, live chat. Success metric: conversion rate from lead to MQL (marketing qualified lead) or opportunity.

Stage 3: Purchase. The buyer is ready to commit but needs final persuasion and friction removal. Your job is to close the deal and set them up for success from day one. Touchpoints: proposal email with social proof and urgency, checkout optimization (if self-serve), sales call, contract signing, onboarding email. Success metric: close rate and deal velocity (days from opportunity to contract).

Stage 4: Expansion. The buyer is now a customer. Your job is to show them how to get maximum value, discover upsell and cross-sell opportunities, and turn them into advocates. Touchpoints: personalized onboarding (video + docs + guided tour), check-in emails at 30/60/90 days, in-app prompts and tooltips, expansion email campaigns (feature releases, use-case ideas), success check-ins via phone or video. Success metric: time to first value, activation rate (% using core features), NPS, and expansion revenue per customer.

Stage 5: Advocacy. The customer is thriving and should be a source of referrals and case studies. Your job is to make referrals and testimonials frictionless. Touchpoints: referral emails with incentive, NPS survey for detractors (turn them around), case study requests, user group invitations, loyalty/rewards program. Success metric: referral rate, case study completion rate, repeat purchase rate.

How to map touchpoints to behavior and psychology

The difference between a generic email and one that moves behavior is context and trigger. A generic email says, “Check out our new feature.” A contextual, triggered email says, “We noticed you uploaded 50+ documents this week. Here’s how to use bulk operations to save 10 hours per month.” The second one is only sent to customers who actually uploaded documents in the past week. It’s specific to their behavior, and it lands when it’s relevant to them.

Triggers fall into two categories: time-based and behavior-based. Time-based triggers are simple: send an email on day 3 after purchase, day 30 after purchase, etc. These work but they’re blunt. A customer who buys on a Tuesday gets the same email as one who buys on a Friday, even though their state of mind is different. Behavior-based triggers are smarter: send an email when the customer logs in for the first time, when they use a specific feature, when they hit a milestone (10 projects, 100 team members, $5K spend), or when they haven’t logged in for 14 days. Behavior-based triggers move the needle because they’re timely and relevant.

To map touchpoints to psychology, you need to understand the buyer’s mental state at each stage and design touchpoints that speak to it. In awareness, the buyer is problem-aware but solution-agnostic. Your copy should educate and build credibility. In consideration, they’re solution-aware but comparing options. Your copy should build urgency and reduce risk (social proof, guarantees, free trials). In purchase, they’re ready but anxious about commitment. Your copy should remove doubt and make the commitment feel safe. In expansion, they’re using your tool and want to go deeper. Your copy should guide and excite. In advocacy, they’re happy and open to being asked. Your copy should make it easy and rewarding to refer. This isn’t manipulation; it’s alignment. You’re matching your message to their actual state of mind.

• Identify the top 5-7 behaviors that indicate buyer intent or stage progression (e.g., watched demo, created account, completed onboarding, used specific feature, inactive for 30+ days)
• For each behavior, design 1-2 triggered touchpoints. Keep a trigger map: ‘If customer does X, send them Y within Z hours.’
• Use psychological principles: reciprocity (give value first), scarcity (limited time offers), social proof (testimonials, case studies), and authority (expert content) at each stage
• A/B test copy, offers, and timing. Run a time-based sequence vs. a behavior-based sequence on the same cohort. Measure conversion rate and CAC payback
• Test 4-6 week intervals between awareness and purchase touchpoints, 7-14 day intervals during expansion, and quarterly check-ins during advocacy

The touchpoint stack: Email, SMS, ads, in-app, and content

A mature customer lifecycle system uses five channels in concert: email, SMS, paid ads, in-app messaging, and owned content. Email is your workhorse. It’s high-ROI, easy to personalize, and easy to measure. Most companies ship 2-3 emails per stage. SMS is your emergency broadcast system. Use it for time-sensitive stuff (24-hour trial expiring, urgent issue, referral bonus ending). In-app messaging (modals, tooltips, banners) shows features and guidance without leaving the product. Paid ads (retargeting) remind cold and warm leads of your solution when they’re browsing elsewhere. Content (blog posts, guides, case studies) educates and builds trust over time.

The integration is critical. Each channel reinforces the others. A customer gets an awareness email about a problem you solve. If they don’t click, they see a retargeting ad on LinkedIn three days later. If they click that ad, they land on a blog post about the problem (content). If they sign up, they get a welcome sequence (email), and after they log in, they see a guided tour (in-app). If they don’t activate, they get an SMS on day 5 asking if they have questions. This is a system. Most companies run each channel independently, which is why their results suck. You get acquisition without activation, activation without expansion, expansion without advocacy.

Here’s a sample stack for a $2-5M ARR SaaS company. Email service provider (Klaviyo or HubSpot): customer data, automation, segmentation. SMS provider (Twilio or Klaviyo): transactional and marketing SMS. Ad platform (Facebook/Instagram, LinkedIn, Google Ads): awareness and retargeting. Product analytics (Segment, Amplitude, or Mixpanel): behavior tracking and triggers. In-app messaging (Appcues, Pendo, or Intercom): tooltips, modals, checklists. CRM (HubSpot or Pipedrive): sales pipeline and customer communication history. All of these should integrate via APIs or Zapier so that customer data flows freely. If you’re still manually moving data between tools, you’re wasting 40 hours per week.

Building a lifecycle marketing playbook in 90 days

You don’t need six months and a consultant to build a lifecycle system. You need 90 days, a cross-functional team, and a clear playbook. Here’s the sprint: Weeks 1-2 (Plan): Map your customer journey and identify 2-3 high-impact touchpoints per stage. Interview 5-10 customers in each stage (recent purchasers, long-term customers, churned customers) to understand their pain points and what would have helped. Set revenue outcomes (CAC payback, LTV target, expansion revenue target). Weeks 3-4 (Build): Write copy for each touchpoint. Design the trigger logic and automation workflow. Audit your tools and integrate them. Weeks 5-8 (Test): Launch the awareness-to-consideration sequence first. Run for 2-4 weeks, measure open rate / click rate / conversion rate. If conversion is below 5%, iterate on copy. Once you hit 5%+, layer in the purchase stage sequence. Weeks 9-12 (Scale): Add expansion and advocacy touchpoints. Measure LTV, churn, expansion revenue. Calculate payback on the time invested. Document everything in a playbook so the next person can run it.

Here’s a realistic week-by-week breakdown for a SaaS company with 500 customers and $2M ARR. Week 1: Audit existing customer journey and identify drop-off points. Week 2: Interview 10 customers across stages, document feedback. Week 3: Map ideal customer journey with 5-7 touchpoints per stage. Week 4: Write email copy (12-15 emails total). Week 5: Set up automation in email platform and CRM. Week 6: Build in-app onboarding flow. Week 7: Launch and monitor. Week 8: Analyze data, iterate copy/timing. Week 9: Add SMS channel. Week 10: Build referral program and case study outreach. Week 11: Optimize based on learnings. Week 12: Document playbook and hand off to ops. The team: CMO (strategy, copy, testing), ops/analyst (automation setup, data tracking), product/CS (input on activation, expansion). That’s 3-4 people, 60% of their time, for 12 weeks.

The playbook is a single document that lives in Google Drive or Notion. It includes: (1) Customer journey map with stage definitions, (2) Trigger-and-touchpoint table (if this behavior, then send this message at this time), (3) Email templates with copy, (4) Automation workflows with screenshots, (5) Success metrics and targets, (6) Monthly QA checklist (are messages sending? is copy still relevant?). This is your system of record. When your CMO leaves or you bring in an agency, they read the playbook first and have everything they need to run it.

Measuring what matters: Cohort analysis and payback periods

Most companies measure email metrics (open rate, click rate) and call it success. Open rate tells you nothing about revenue impact. You need to measure cohort behavior. A cohort is a group of customers who took an action in the same time period (e.g., all customers acquired in January 2025). You track that cohort’s revenue, churn, NPS, and feature adoption over time. Then you compare it to cohorts from before your lifecycle system launched. If January 2025 customers (with lifecycle) have 40% lower churn than January 2024 customers (without lifecycle), and 25% higher expansion revenue, that’s your payback signal.

The key metrics to track by cohort are: CAC payback period, customer LTV, churn rate, expansion revenue per customer, and NPS. CAC payback period is the number of months it takes a customer to generate enough revenue to cover their acquisition cost. If CAC is $500 and monthly ARPU is $50, payback is 10 months. If you add a lifecycle system that increases ARPU by 25% (upsells, expansion) and retention, payback drops to 7 months. LTV is the total revenue from a customer over their lifetime. If average customer stays 24 months, LTV is $1,200 (24 months × $50/month). Add lifecycle work, they stay 40 months, LTV is $2,000. Churn rate is what % of customers leave each month. A 5% monthly churn is healthy for B2B SaaS. A 2% monthly churn is great. Expansion revenue is upsells and cross-sells. Track it separately from retention revenue. NPS is net promoter score. If you ship a lifecycle system and NPS jumps from 30 to 50, that’s a signal that you’re creating real value.

Here’s a dashboard you should build in your analytics tool (Amplitude, Mixpanel, or custom Looker). For each customer cohort (acquired in Jan 2025, Feb 2025, etc.), measure: (1) CAC, (2) Month 1 revenue, (3) Churn rate by month, (4) Cumulative LTV by month, (5) % that expand (upsell) by month 6, 12, and 24. Compare Jan 2025 (lifecycle system) to Jan 2024 (no system). If Jan 2025 has 20% higher LTV and 25% lower churn, your lifecycle system is working. Now reverse-engineer the cost to build it. If you spent 300 hours of labor to build it and serve 100 new customers per month, that’s 3 hours per customer. If LTV goes from $1,200 to $1,600, that’s $40K additional revenue per month cohort. ROI is 40K / (300 hrs × $75/hour) = 1,777% in year one.

• Build a cohort analysis dashboard that compares customer behavior month-over-month or quarter-over-quarter before and after lifecycle system launch
• Track CAC payback period (months to recoup acquisition cost), not open rate. Open rate is a vanity metric.
• Segment cohorts by acquisition source (organic, paid, referral) and compare lifecycle outcomes across channels
• Run monthly reports on NPS, churn, expansion revenue, and feature adoption by cohort to catch early warnings
• Use attribution modeling to connect specific touchpoints to revenue. Measure revenue influenced (not just revenue attributed) by lifecycle emails
• Set targets: e.g., “Reduce CAC payback from 12 to 8 months, increase LTV by 40%, reduce churn from 4% to 2% within 12 months”

Common mistakes and how to avoid them

Mistake 1: Too many touchpoints. You design 15 emails and 5 SMS per stage and wonder why unsubscribe rate spikes. Right answer: 2-3 emails per stage, 1 SMS per stage max. Quality over quantity. A three-email sequence that’s well-written and timed will out-perform a seven-email sequence that feels spammy.

Mistake 2: Automation without strategy. You set up email sequences but don’t update the copy for six months. Right answer: Review and update email copy every 30 days. Track what’s working and what isn’t. A/B test subject lines and CTAs. Assign an owner to maintain the playbook.

Mistake 3: All time-based, no behavior-based triggers. You send the same email to all new customers, even if half of them already activated. Right answer: Use behavior triggers. If customer activated, skip the “here’s how to get started” email. If customer hasn’t logged in for 14 days, send a re-engagement email, not a feature announcement.

Mistake 4: Siloed tools. Email platform doesn’t talk to CRM, CRM doesn’t talk to analytics, analytics don’t talk to ads platform. Right answer: Invest in integrations. Use Zapier, Segment, or API connections to unify data. If you can’t pass a customer ID from email to analytics to ads, you can’t measure impact.

Mistake 5: Chasing open rate. You obsess over subject lines and forget that the goal is revenue, not opens. Right answer: Measure conversion rate and revenue per email. A 20% open rate is worthless if it converts at 0.5%. A 12% open rate that converts at 3% is gold.

Mistake 6: Not testing. You ship a lifecycle system and assume it’s final. Right answer: Run continuous tests. Try different email copy, different send times, different offers. Capture learning and iterate monthly.

How to staff and scale a lifecycle marketing engine

You don’t need a 12-person lifecycle team. You need 1-2 smart people and the right tool stack. At $2-5M ARR: 1 person (email manager) + 10% of CMO’s time + 10% of a data analyst’s time. This person owns the playbook, writes most of the copy, manages sequences, and reports monthly. At $5-15M ARR: 1 full-time lifecycle marketing manager + 1 part-time copywriter (contractor) + 20% of data analyst. At $15M+ ARR: 1 lifecycle marketing manager + 1-2 full-time copywriters + 1 data analyst + 1 automation specialist. The bottleneck is never headcount. It’s process clarity and tool capability.

Here’s how to structure the role: Own the playbook. Drive it forward. Make sure sequences are firing, copy is strong, and measurement is clean. Your lifecycle manager should spend 40% on strategy (journey mapping, testing, new channels), 40% on execution (copy, automation setup, QA), and 20% on measurement (cohort analysis, reporting, optimization). They should report to the CMO and partner closely with product and CS. They should have a monthly planning meeting with stakeholders, a weekly standup with the ops team, and a monthly all-hands deep dive on performance and learnings.

Hiring: Look for someone with experience in one of these: email marketing, product marketing, or growth. They need to understand funnels, psychology, and data. Technical skills matter less than strategic thinking. Anyone can learn Klaviyo or HubSpot in 3 weeks. Not everyone can write copy that moves behavior. Look for someone who’s run campaigns, measured results, and iterated. Avoid email marketers who think open rate is the goal. Avoid product marketers who can’t execute. You want someone who can think and do.

The path forward: Build, measure, compound

Customer lifecycle marketing is not a trend. It’s the math of sustainable growth. Every dollar you spend on acquisition is wasted if you don’t have a system to retain, engage, and expand that customer. The companies scaling fastest are not the ones with the biggest marketing budgets. They’re the ones with the tightest lifecycle systems. They’ve built a machine that turns $1 of CAC into $8-12 of LTV. They’ve automated the motion so it runs without heroic effort. They’ve measured everything so they know exactly what’s working.

The path is clear: Map your lifecycle in month one. Build and test your playbook in months two and three. Measure and iterate in months four and beyond. Start with awareness-to-purchase. Get that right. Then layer in expansion. Then advocacy. Don’t try to boil the ocean. Don’t hire a 10-person team. Don’t buy the fanciest tool. Start with your best people, a spreadsheet (or simple automation tool), and a commitment to testing. Measure rigorously. Celebrate wins. Learn from losses. Compound.

If you want a shortcut, that’s where we come in. We’ve built lifecycle systems for 200+ clients. We know which touchpoints move the needle, how to avoid the traps, and how to measure what matters. We work as fractional CMOs, meaning we own the playbook and execution, not just strategy. We pair that with AI-powered tools and automation infrastructure so the system runs without manual work. We ship in 90 days and hand it off so you can run it internally. Most clients see payback within 6 months and are compounding revenue at 3-5x the original pace by month 12.

Conclusion

Customer lifecycle marketing is the unfair advantage for 7-figure businesses. It’s not complicated, but it does require discipline. You need to map your journey, design touchpoints that compound, choose tools that integrate, measure relentlessly, and iterate. Most companies know this intellectually but don’t execute because they’re too busy chasing month-to-month targets. That’s why so many plateau at $2-3M ARR. The ones that scale past that point are the ones that build systems. They stop thinking about campaigns and start thinking about journeys. They stop hiring for hours and start hiring for outcomes. At CO Consulting, we specialize in helping 7-figure businesses do exactly this. We come in as fractional CMO, partner with your team, and build the playbook. Then we layer in AI and automation so the system runs without constant manual work. If you’re ready to move beyond campaigns and into systems, let’s talk.

Frequently Asked Questions

How long does it take to see results from a lifecycle marketing system?

Small wins show up in 30-60 days (email open rate, onboarding completion). Meaningful financial impact (churn reduction, LTV improvement) shows up in 90-180 days. Full compounding benefits appear at 6-12 months. The key is starting now, not waiting for the perfect setup.

What’s the difference between lifecycle marketing and marketing automation?

Marketing automation is a tool that sends emails based on triggers. Lifecycle marketing is a strategy that designs a sequence of touchpoints across multiple channels to move customers through five stages. You can have automation without lifecycle strategy (most companies), or lifecycle strategy without automation (rare, but possible). You want both.

Do I need to integrate my email platform with my CRM?

Yes. If email doesn’t talk to CRM, you’re losing 60% of the lift. You can’t trigger on sales activity, segment by account data, or measure pipeline impact. Use Zapier, Segment, or native integrations. It’s worth the setup cost.

What’s a good email open rate for lifecycle sequences?

15-25% for welcome sequences, 8-15% for nurture sequences, 5-12% for re-engagement. But open rate is not the goal. Conversion rate is. A sequence with 10% open rate and 5% conversion is better than one with 25% opens and 0.5% conversion. Focus on the end outcome, not the middle metric.

How many emails should I send per week?

Depends on your audience and stage. For new customers (onboarding), 2-3 per week is fine. For existing customers, 1-2 per week is better. For inactive/at-risk, 1 every 10 days. Watch unsubscribe rates like a hawk. If they spike above 0.5%, you’re sending too much.

Can I build a lifecycle system if I have a small team?

Yes. Start with email. Then add SMS. Then in-app. You don’t need all channels at once. One smart person can manage awareness-to-purchase lifecycle. Add expansion and advocacy once that’s working. Most $1-5M companies do this with one person part-time.

How do I know if my lifecycle system is working?

Measure: (1) CAC payback period (lower is better), (2) Customer LTV by cohort (higher is better), (3) Churn rate (lower is better), (4) Expansion revenue per customer (higher is better), (5) NPS (higher is better). If all five improve after launch, you’re winning.

What’s the best email tool for lifecycle marketing?

For SaaS: Klaviyo or HubSpot. For D2C: Klaviyo (best-in-class). For sales-driven orgs: HubSpot (tighter CRM integration). For small teams: Klaviyo (most user-friendly). The tool matters less than the strategy. Don’t spend three months evaluating software; pick one and go.

How do I measure the ROI of my lifecycle marketing spend?

Calculate: (Additional revenue from lifecycle cohort – Original cohort revenue) / (Cost to build + Cost to run). If lifecycle costs $50K to build and $2K/month to run, and generates $200K additional LTV per cohort across 12 months, ROI is (200K – 50K) / (50K + 24K) = 2.7x in year one. Most clients see 2-5x ROI.

Should I use AI to write my lifecycle emails?

AI can draft templates and brainstorm subject lines. It should not write final copy. AI lacks brand voice and psychological insight. Use AI to speed up drafting, then have a human review, edit, and test. The best lifecycle emails are human-written, AI-optimized.

What’s the biggest mistake companies make with lifecycle marketing?

Treating it as a one-time project instead of an ongoing system. They build sequences, launch, and abandon. Good lifecycle marketing requires monthly review, testing, and iteration. Assign an owner, give them a budget, and hold them accountable to outcomes.

Can I implement lifecycle marketing myself, or should I hire an agency?

You can implement it yourself if you have someone with email/growth experience. If you don’t, hire an agency for the initial 90 days (playbook and build), then hand off to an internal person. Don’t hire an agency to run it forever; that’s wasteful and keeps you dependent.

Why work with CO Consulting on customer lifecycle marketing?

We work as fractional CMO, meaning we own the outcome, not just the work. We’ve built 200+ lifecycle systems for 7-figure growth brands and generated 200M+ organic views for clients. We pair strategy with AI and automation infrastructure so the system compounds without ongoing services. We don’t charge for hours; we charge for business outcomes. Most clients see improved retention and 40%+ higher LTV within six months, and the playbook runs internally without us.